Setup for MFM 5 1/4" DD 360K

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Guld
Posts: 12
Joined: Fri Dec 29, 2017 11:38 pm

Re: Setup for MFM 5 1/4" DD 360K

Post by Guld »

brightcaster wrote: Fri Oct 01, 2021 10:54 am Your parameter line doesn't work that way! Just to quote the manual:
IMPORTANT NOTE on command line parameters order:
The following settings are “image local” and therefore must appear before the image type and would affect only the first image type specified after the parameter. Their values automatically revert to the default after an image type setting (ie once they get used).

Correct: DTC.exe -ffilename.ext -v360 -z3 -i4
Wrong: DTC.exe -ffilename.ext -i4 -v360 -z3
So your parameter line should be

dtc -ftest.img -v300 -e41 -oe39 -i4 -ffilename -i0

instead of

dtc -ftest.img -i4 -i0 -v300 -oe39 -e41

Still, a raw flux dump would be handy to examine for the bad sectors you get...

David
Ah, okay, thanks for the clarification, I wasn't aware of the argument ordering requirements.

I was able to determine that the disk I was testing with has got an issue now that it didn't used to have even on the original system, so that might explain some of the issues. I'll have to switch to another known good disk to continue testing. I'll post some raw flux dumps if I still have issues. Hopefully I can give it another go this weekend sometime.

Thanks for all the pointers David!
Guld
Posts: 12
Joined: Fri Dec 29, 2017 11:38 pm

Re: Setup for MFM 5 1/4" DD 360K

Post by Guld »

Guld wrote: Sat Oct 09, 2021 12:18 am
brightcaster wrote: Fri Oct 01, 2021 10:54 am Your parameter line doesn't work that way! Just to quote the manual:
IMPORTANT NOTE on command line parameters order:
The following settings are “image local” and therefore must appear before the image type and would affect only the first image type specified after the parameter. Their values automatically revert to the default after an image type setting (ie once they get used).

Correct: DTC.exe -ffilename.ext -v360 -z3 -i4
Wrong: DTC.exe -ffilename.ext -i4 -v360 -z3
So your parameter line should be

dtc -ftest.img -v300 -e41 -oe39 -i4 -ffilename -i0

instead of

dtc -ftest.img -i4 -i0 -v300 -oe39 -e41

Still, a raw flux dump would be handy to examine for the bad sectors you get...

David
Ah, okay, thanks for the clarification, I wasn't aware of the argument ordering requirements.

I was able to determine that the disk I was testing with has got an issue now that it didn't used to have even on the original system, so that might explain some of the issues. I'll have to switch to another known good disk to continue testing. I'll post some raw flux dumps if I still have issues. Hopefully I can give it another go this weekend sometime.

Thanks for all the pointers David!
Alright, I'm back to trying to resolve this issue again. I've got known good disks now and I'm using the exact same drive connected to Kryoflux as I am in the target system itself.

The drive is a Qume Qumetrak 142 (5 1/4" DSDD). It works perfectly in the target system and I've checked that it is running the correct RPM.
I have also been successfully able to write a Kryoflux stream to the disk and use it in the target system just fine (after degaussing the disk, etc.)

However, no matter what I do, Kryoflux seems completely unable to read disks back from this DSDD drive. It wasn't even able to read the disk which I wrote with Kryoflux, which is really odd. As a reminder, the exact same disk works perfectly in the target system using the exact same drive. I've also done some binary-diffs on the files on the disk vs. the ones that were on the original it was copied from and all the ones I checked matched exactly.

When I attempt to read the disk in Kryoflux, I get repeated errors about bad sectors, and the preservation stream coming back does not look good either.
Command line arguments used:
'dtc -ftest.img -v300 -e41 -oe39 -i4 -ftest\test -e41 -i0'

I will note that I do see that Kryoflux is reporting errors of XX.X "Drive speed problem detected". I have also tried pulling a preservation stream with the 300 RPM specified and it does not help. The Qumetrak 142 drive does of course run at 300 RPM.

As another test, I put the same disk in my Teac FD-55GFR (5 1/4" DSHD - 360 RPM), and it pulls a great looking stream and image. So by all accounts that I can tell, the disk is good and was written well.

Any ideas on why Kryoflux seems to have issues reading from the Qume drive even though it successfully wrote the image?
brightcaster
Posts: 477
Joined: Fri Nov 08, 2013 10:48 pm

Re: Setup for MFM 5 1/4" DD 360K

Post by brightcaster »

If you get a "Drive speed problem detected" please check for the index sensor. DTC calculates the rpm from the time between the index pulses. The index sensor of the Qume is opto electronic, so a cleaning may help.

On the other hand it could be that the sensor gets confused if you place the open drive without a housing in front of you workdesks lamp! (Easy to check with putting lights off while reading.)

The Qume is also known for heavy wow and flutter because it's belt driven! After all the decades this belts tend to loose friction. If the drive was stored for a long time with the belt in the same position to the wheels it could also be that the belt got a slack resulting in a speed drop at a certain position per revolution.

Last not least this drives are very slow in head movement. So some user recommend the "slow" firmware...

viewtopic.php?p=156#p156

http://www.primrosebank.net/computers/m ... floppy.pdf

As I said before, a RAW dump would become very handy for further examination at this stage....

David
brightcaster
Posts: 477
Joined: Fri Nov 08, 2013 10:48 pm

Re: Setup for MFM 5 1/4" DD 360K

Post by brightcaster »

Might be worth a look also, especialy the "servicing" part:

https://www.lo-tech.co.uk/wiki/QumeTrak ... Disk_Drive

David
SomeGuy
Posts: 348
Joined: Wed Feb 18, 2015 8:18 pm

Re: Setup for MFM 5 1/4" DD 360K

Post by SomeGuy »

Ug, I've got a couple of those drives. They suck. Half the time they won't even spin cleaning disks.

If you have not already done so, take the belts off and gently clean them. Also make sure the motor pulley and spindle are clean and not oily. You may also find that you need to "exercise" the drives - if they are normally in a PC, set them in some loop that constantly reads files from a disk and let it run for at least a few hours.

Even if it "works", you do NOT want to use belt-driven drives with a Kryoflux. There will always be too much minute variation in spindle speed during track read/writes.
Guld
Posts: 12
Joined: Fri Dec 29, 2017 11:38 pm

Re: Setup for MFM 5 1/4" DD 360K

Post by Guld »

brightcaster wrote: Fri Nov 19, 2021 11:49 am If you get a "Drive speed problem detected" please check for the index sensor. DTC calculates the rpm from the time between the index pulses. The index sensor of the Qume is opto electronic, so a cleaning may help.

On the other hand it could be that the sensor gets confused if you place the open drive without a housing in front of you workdesks lamp! (Easy to check with putting lights off while reading.)

The Qume is also known for heavy wow and flutter because it's belt driven! After all the decades this belts tend to loose friction. If the drive was stored for a long time with the belt in the same position to the wheels it could also be that the belt got a slack resulting in a speed drop at a certain position per revolution.

Last not least this drives are very slow in head movement. So some user recommend the "slow" firmware...

viewtopic.php?p=156#p156

http://www.primrosebank.net/computers/m ... floppy.pdf

As I said before, a RAW dump would become very handy for further examination at this stage....

David
k, thanks for the ideas. I did check the indexing sensor for correct functioning and it is completely within spec for the service manual for that, but I can see if it's an issue with lights or it being dirty.

David linked the actual service manual above in case anyone else reads this thread and finds it handy. Note that the two drives I have are slightly different and the pinouts have changed slightly (they removed unused pins and thus the pin numbers changed). But with a little bit of detective work you can figure out which pins are the correct ones.
http://www.primrosebank.net/computers/m ... floppy.pdf

The drive was stored for a while but has been exercised quite a bit lately and seems to be working correctly for everything I do on the actual system. I have also looked for any slip in the belt (per the service manual) and it does not appear to be slipping at all. Testing was done with a disk in the drive, so the drive was under a normal "load".

I'll give that "slow" firmware a look, I had not heard of that.

As far as the RAW dump goes, I have no idea how I'd submit one of those? I can submit a stream of the same disk from both the Qume drive and the Teac.
SomeGuy wrote: Fri Nov 19, 2021 3:58 pm Ug, I've got a couple of those drives. They suck. Half the time they won't even spin cleaning disks.

If you have not already done so, take the belts off and gently clean them. Also make sure the motor pulley and spindle are clean and not oily. You may also find that you need to "exercise" the drives - if they are normally in a PC, set them in some loop that constantly reads files from a disk and let it run for at least a few hours.

Even if it "works", you do NOT want to use belt-driven drives with a Kryoflux. There will always be too much minute variation in spindle speed during track read/writes.
I have 2 of them, and one needs an RPM adjustment but other than that appears to be working well. The other one has never had an issue (the one I've been testing with). I've heard some recommendations that you can move the motor ever so slightly to increase tension on the belt if it's slipping. Console5 also has fabric reinforced belts (like the originals, but they are out of stock at the moment):
https://console5.com/store/fabric-reinf ... drive.html

I've seen recommendations that the reinforced belts are better than the rubber as the rubber ones tend to stretch too easily and slip sooner giving an overall shorter life.
brightcaster wrote: Fri Nov 19, 2021 2:41 pm Might be worth a look also, especialy the "servicing" part:

https://www.lo-tech.co.uk/wiki/QumeTrak ... Disk_Drive
I've actually already imaged every one of my 5 1/4" disks with the Teac HD drive and even 3 1/2" disks just for the "fun" of it. Working with the Qume drive is more of an exercise where I was having issues with a few images and wanted to see if the original drive did a better job with the disks than the Teac. I'm happy that I was able to write an image and successfully use it!
Guld
Posts: 12
Joined: Fri Dec 29, 2017 11:38 pm

Re: Setup for MFM 5 1/4" DD 360K

Post by Guld »

brightcaster wrote: Fri Nov 19, 2021 11:49 am Last not least this drives are very slow in head movement. So some user recommend the "slow" firmware...

viewtopic.php?p=156#p156
David,

It does not appear that the slow firmware is included with the distribution package anymore although the manual still makes mention of it. Or maybe it is now the default? I'm not sure. At least for the Windows 3.00 release there is only one firmware included :"kryoflux_3.00_windows\dtc\firware_kf_usb_rosalie.bin".

Release 2.72 (both Windows and Linux releases) include two firmwares:
"kryoflux_2.72_windows\dtc\firmware_kf_usb_rosalie.bin"
"kryoflux_2.72_windows\dtc\firmware_fast\firmware_kf_usb_rosalie.bin".

Any ideas? Should I try the "kryoflux_2.72_windows\dtc\firmware_kf_usb_rosalie.bin" firmware? I'm not sure how to confirm that it is in fact the "slow" firmware.
brightcaster
Posts: 477
Joined: Fri Nov 08, 2013 10:48 pm

Re: Setup for MFM 5 1/4" DD 360K

Post by brightcaster »

Uhhps, you are right, the slow firmware is default for "quite a while" now:

viewtopic.php?p=12800&hilit=slow+firmware#p12800

Sorry, but I missed that!

For submitting RAW-files you have to upload them somewhere on the web, and post a link to that location here ...

David
Guld
Posts: 12
Joined: Fri Dec 29, 2017 11:38 pm

Re: Setup for MFM 5 1/4" DD 360K

Post by Guld »

brightcaster wrote: Fri Nov 19, 2021 6:54 pm Uhhps, you are right, the slow firmware is default for "quite a while" now:

viewtopic.php?p=12800&hilit=slow+firmware#p12800

Sorry, but I missed that!

For submitting RAW-files you have to upload them somewhere on the web, and post a link to that location here ...

David
Alright, here is a zip file containing the same DOS 3.3 Startup Disk read with the Qumetrak 142 and the Teac FD-55GFR. This is a read of the original DOS 3.3 disk and not a copy, so it is a good master.
https://drive.google.com/file/d/1RzZ8Ee ... sp=sharing

Directories in the zip file are labeled by which drive was used to read the disk.

The command line arguments were:
Qumetrak 142: dtc -fdos33_startup_qumetrak142\track -e41 -i0
Note: Qumetrak showed 300RPM entire run with no errors.

Teac FD-55GFR: dtc -fdos33_startup_teac_fd-55gfr\track -e83 -i0
Note: Teac showed 360RPM entire run with no errors.

Looking at the results in HxC shows issues with the Qumetrak read data, but the Teac looks perfect once you remove the odd numbered tracks.

Thanks for any ideas!
Jason
brightcaster
Posts: 477
Joined: Fri Nov 08, 2013 10:48 pm

Re: Setup for MFM 5 1/4" DD 360K

Post by brightcaster »

This is in deed a very poor signal quality! Is the terminator plugged in? (Look at page 20/21 of the manual for function and position on the PCB.) Was it the only drive in the original machine you tested it with or was there a second drive connected?

Otherwise I could only think of a EMC problem at the moment. Do you feed the drive with a separate power supply which is not connected to anything else but mains and the drive itself? Does the power supply have a ground connection, which leads to a "ground loop" to your PC?

David
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