Kryoflux Flippy Disk Preservation Commands

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JasonCA
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Joined: Tue Oct 11, 2011 3:37 am
Location: California

Re: Kryoflux Flippy Disk Preservation Commands

Post by JasonCA » Wed May 30, 2018 5:52 am

brightcaster wrote:
Mon May 28, 2018 3:28 pm
I'm sorry to repeat myself again, but don't forget, that the drive is spinning the wrong direction on the second side if you read a flippy disk in a dual head drive (without flipping it).

So the data-stream has to be corrected (turned reverse) directly after you read a single track from the second side. I gues this is done directly after reading and before creating a streamfile (to make shure that the streamfile contains correct data).
Thanks for the reminder brithcaster. :) Although I realize this, I have a hard time believing that the data-stream and storage format via software is tied to the hardware in such a way. I suppose that is possible, but why? Regardless of how the stream is oriented, it seems it would be up to the Kryoflux decoder to correct the stream on the fly. But, perhaps that just how Kryoflux has implemented their software? :|
brightcaster wrote:
Mon May 28, 2018 3:28 pm
That would mean that you have to know about flippy or dual side format before you create a streamfile! Otherwise the streamfile would contain wrong (reverse direction) data for the second side....

David
Great point!

Through my testing, it would seem that is the case brightcaster: you can't blindly dump via stream preservation format one time and later on convert the stream to a different format as I originally thought. :( Again, I tend to believe this is a current limitation of the current Kryoflux software tools. I think the data is there, but just can't be tapped.

JasonCA
Posts: 32
Joined: Tue Oct 11, 2011 3:37 am
Location: California

Re: Kryoflux Flippy Disk Preservation Commands

Post by JasonCA » Wed May 30, 2018 6:53 am

SomeGuy wrote:
Mon May 28, 2018 8:00 pm
I don't have a flippy modded drive, so do not know exactly how this would work, but if you are saving a stream file while generating the .g64/.d64 file from this then it looks like you are using a "guided" stream dump. That has some differences from a preservation stream dump. For one, it looks like in the case of flippy disks it is omitting tracks that it thinks should not have data? (Or is this only because of the offset command?)
No, I'm using the Preservation Format (-i0) with a output format as a guide (-6a) as shown from below:

Code: Select all

Image types supported:
 0 : KryoFlux stream files, preservation
 6a: CBM DOS sector image with error map
So I just have 5 revolutions in the stream for each track.
SomeGuy wrote:
Mon May 28, 2018 8:00 pm
Perhaps try making just a preservation dump first. I *think* the kryoflux will then dump both sides on all tracks, but I am not sure. It looks like you might have to specify the offset commands for both heads and then specify more tracks.
Right, that's what I thought! But NO! :o If life were only that simple! :roll:

I am currently sweeping from -8 to 82 which, in theory, would create a stream that could cover both a Flippy and Dual Sided disk. However, it seems that after the preservation stream has been generated, I'm not able to readjust the tracks to output the desired format even though the data is probably all there, but just not accessible through the Kryoflux software.
SomeGuy wrote:
Mon May 28, 2018 8:00 pm
Once you have a full preservation stream dump, then you can feed that stream dump back in to the Kryoflux software to decode to .g64/.d64 or whatever format.
Yes, but after you feed the Preservation Format stream dump back in and to my discover, you are not able to adjust the track offsets as I once thought was possible.

These do not work on the input of Preservation Streams:

Code: Select all

-a<trk> : set side 0/a track0 physical position (default 0)
-b<trk> : set side 1/b track0 physical position (default 0)
It would seem that the only solution at this time is to be forced to re-dump even though I have Preservation Format stream files that probably already contain the full set of data. :(
SomeGuy wrote:
Mon May 28, 2018 8:00 pm
I don't know how the track offset commands will react to stream file input, but if that does not work you could at least write a batch file to rename each trackxx.x.raw file to whatever the software expects.
Unless, the raw files themselves have data contained within the says "I'm so and so track # ONLY" then that may not be possible. But I don't know either, which is why I'm asking and trying to find out.

Great point SomeGuy, that's something I also have wondered but never tried: can you swap .raw track files around? If you have two stream dumps A & B, but find a good track on stream B that is missing from stream A, can you take that track from stream B and replace it with the same track for stream A? :?:

In fact, that's been another question on my mind because I have some dumps that have bad tracks? Is it possible to re-dump for a single track only and then take that single .raw file I just created and replace that track it belongs to from another stream?

I've read through the forums earlier about this for bad disks. It seems some will attempt to redump the disk with a retry as high as 50 attempts or even 500 (I think i read IFW has gone as high as such).
SomeGuy wrote:
Mon May 28, 2018 8:00 pm
The upshot of using a full preservation stream dump first is you can get ALL data in one pass and figure out what is on the disk later.
Uh, no! :x But, I thought the exact same thing! ;) It seems when it comes to Flippy and Double Sided disks, you have to dump what you believe it is first as brightcaster has kindly pointed out. If you are wrong, it seems you may have to re-dump a Prervation Stream a second time!
SomeGuy wrote:
Mon May 28, 2018 8:00 pm
The down side is it has no way to retry bad sector reads, aside from saving multiple revolutions. Usually the best thing to do is decode right after making the preservation dump, and then redump again if there are bad sectors. However, that can be a headache if there are lots of bad sectors.
That's what I thought the preservation format was for too: if you don't specify an output format, it will just save multiple revelations blindly where you can go back later on with reading back in the stream and outputting it to a desired format. Of course with a blind dump, you may have good data or you may not. So the preference is to always dump with a output format to help determine if the data is good or bad! If you specify an output format, it will be used as a guide in determining if the data is correct. The result will be a stream file and a .d64 or .g64. :)

In my case, I have some dumps where only one side was copied (assumed it was a Flippy disk), but where the back side was missing (reported as unformatted). It turns out it's a Double Sided disk. Looking at the stream data in the Kryoflux GUI, you can clearly see data is there as is the case for Double Sided disks! If the data is there, then why can't I just simply read the stream back in and dump side B? Apparently, you can't! :roll:
SomeGuy wrote:
Mon May 28, 2018 8:00 pm
Although, the sad truth is you do have to know a bit about what is on the disk to ensure it is dumped properly. This is especially true of 5.25" disks where disks can be 48TPI, 96TPI, 100TPI, high density, or low density sometimes with no visible clues. If these don't match, then the dump will be worthless.
Very true! But, if the data is found to be in the stream and it is good, it seems there should be ways to pull it out with the Kryoflux tools if at all possible. :) I rather manipulate the Preservation Stream first and only at the very last resort to have to re-dump.

JasonCA
Posts: 32
Joined: Tue Oct 11, 2011 3:37 am
Location: California

Re: Kryoflux Flippy Disk Preservation Commands

Post by JasonCA » Wed May 30, 2018 6:54 am

mr.vince wrote:
Tue May 29, 2018 7:46 pm
For the avoidance of doubt: what kind of flippy mod is this? Panasonic or Newtronics?
:arrow: Panasonic

SomeGuy
Posts: 142
Joined: Wed Feb 18, 2015 8:18 pm

Re: Kryoflux Flippy Disk Preservation Commands

Post by SomeGuy » Wed May 30, 2018 2:52 pm

JasonCA wrote:
Wed May 30, 2018 6:53 am
Unless, the raw files themselves have data contained within the says "I'm so and so track # ONLY" then that may not be possible. But I don't know either, which is why I'm asking and trying to find out.

Great point SomeGuy, that's something I also have wondered but never tried: can you swap .raw track files around? If you have two stream dumps A & B, but find a good track on stream B that is missing from stream A, can you take that track from stream B and replace it with the same track for stream A? :?:

In fact, that's been another question on my mind because I have some dumps that have bad tracks? Is it possible to re-dump for a single track only and then take that single .raw file I just created and replace that track it belongs to from another stream?
I've regularly mix and matched .raw tracks without problem. For example, I use a batch file to remove the odd track numbers from copies of low-density 5.25" dumps made on 80 track 96TPI 1.2mb drives so I can write them on a 40 track 48TPI 360k drive.

And there have been multiple times when I have dumped a disk with a bad track where I was able to later get a good read yet the rest of the disk fell apart making a full redump impossible. Copy the good track in to the original dump, and problem solved.

You can re-dump a single or selected track by specifying the track(s) on the DTC command line or clicking and selecting a set of tracks on the GUI.

When you do a preservation dump with all "negative" tracks, does the DTC output or log show that reading is occurring on all tracks?

Could you post a sample preservation image that is dumped -8 to 82?

JasonCA
Posts: 32
Joined: Tue Oct 11, 2011 3:37 am
Location: California

Re: Kryoflux Flippy Disk Preservation Commands

Post by JasonCA » Sun Jun 03, 2018 10:14 pm

SomeGuy wrote:
Wed May 30, 2018 2:52 pm
I've regularly mix and matched .raw tracks without problem. For example, I use a batch file to remove the odd track numbers from copies of low-density 5.25" dumps made on 80 track 96TPI 1.2mb drives so I can write them on a 40 track 48TPI 360k drive.
Now that I know it's possible, I'll look forward to trying this out :).
SomeGuy wrote:
Wed May 30, 2018 2:52 pm
And there have been multiple times when I have dumped a disk with a bad track where I was able to later get a good read yet the rest of the disk fell apart making a full redump impossible. Copy the good track in to the original dump, and problem solved.
This will be a next step of mine. Once I have enough Dumps, I'll start to go back on some of them and try to re-read the failed ones. This will involve moving some tracks around possibly as you have done.
SomeGuy wrote:
Wed May 30, 2018 2:52 pm
You can re-dump a single or selected track by specifying the track(s) on the DTC command line or clicking and selecting a set of tracks on the GUI.
Looks like this is achievable through the use of:

Code: Select all

-s<trk> : set start track (default at least 0)
-e<trk> : set end track (default at most 83)
I'll have to give this a try. I suppose this can be used to pick out specific bad tracks that I'd like to re-attempt to re-read at some point.

And what should the strategy be to re-read the bad tracks? Let's say I want to attempt re-read a single track 100 times. Does it take one GOOD track reads for Kryoflux to consider it a successful read? Or, does Kryoflux take the 100 read revolutions and try to extract from each read the good data and blend them to create a successful full track read? How smart is Kryoflux on re-reading tracks and blending all the read attempts toghether I guess is what I'm driving at?

Is there a max retry attempt number I should use where trying more retry attempts would essentially be pointless? Again, I think IFW has used 500 as a max retry attempt in the past. Perhaps after a max retry attempt of 500 I should consider it hopeless that I'll ever read a given bad track successfully?

SomeGuy wrote:
Wed May 30, 2018 2:52 pm
When you do a preservation dump with all "negative" tracks, does the DTC output or log show that reading is occurring on all tracks?
Yes :)
SomeGuy wrote:
Wed May 30, 2018 2:52 pm
Could you post a sample preservation image that is dumped -8 to 82?
Sure! I posted this in one of my earlier posts:

Code: Select all

-8.1[00]: CBM DOS: OK*, trk: 001, sec: 21, * +12
-6.1[02]: CBM DOS: OK*, trk: 002, sec: 21, * +15
-4.1[04]: CBM DOS: OK*, trk: 003, sec: 21, * +15
-2.1[06]: CBM DOS: OK*, trk: 004, sec: 21, * +5
00.0    : CBM DOS: OK*, trk: 001, sec: 21, * +13
00.1[08]: CBM DOS: OK*, trk: 005, sec: 21, * +4
02.0    : CBM DOS: OK*, trk: 002, sec: 21, * +14
02.1[10]: CBM DOS: OK*, trk: 006, sec: 21, * +12

... Continues with data on both sides

60.1[68]: CBM DOS: OK*, trk: 035, sec: 17, * +17
62.0    : CBM DOS: OK*, trk: 032, sec: 17, * +15
62.1[70]: CBM DOS: <unformatted>
64.0    : CBM DOS: OK*, trk: 033, sec: 17, * +13
64.1[72]: CBM DOS: <unformatted>
66.0    : CBM DOS: OK*, trk: 034, sec: 17, * +14
66.1[74]: CBM DOS: <unformatted>
68.0    : CBM DOS: OK*, trk: 035, sec: 17, * +15
68.1[76]: CBM DOS: <unformatted>
70.0    : CBM DOS: <unformatted>
70.1[78]: CBM DOS: <unformatted>
72.0    : CBM DOS: <unformatted>
72.1[80]: CBM DOS: <unformatted>
74.0    : CBM DOS: <unformatted>
74.1[82]: CBM DOS: <unformatted>
76.0    : CBM DOS: <unformatted>
78.0    : CBM DOS: <unformatted>
80.0    : CBM DOS: <unformatted>
82.0    : CBM DOS: <unformatted>
You can see from the above, that I step back to track -8.1 and then do a full sweep to track 82. That full sweep could contain both a Flippy Disk and Double Sided disk. :)

If I did dump a disk using the Flippy commands (as shown in the above sample dump) and discover it was actually a Double Sided disk, it would be nice to be able to use Kryoflux DTC commands to pull the Double Sided disk from the Preservation Stream without having to re-dump the entire disk especially if the Double Sided disk exists in the Preservation Stream. However, the DTC commands don't seem to allow you to tap into the data to do this as far as I'm aware. I see this as one of the limitations! :roll:

JasonCA
Posts: 32
Joined: Tue Oct 11, 2011 3:37 am
Location: California

Re: Kryoflux Flippy Disk Preservation Commands

Post by JasonCA » Sun Jun 03, 2018 10:22 pm

In observation, I have noticed that in a lot of my dumps I either get the following for Track 18 Byte 3 in the BAM:

0x00 - Single sided disk
0x80 - Double sided disk
0x2A - ????? :o

In looking into this, I've not been able to find any information as to why 0x2A is often found at Track 18 Byte 3. However, it would seem Byte value of 0x00 and 0x2A both signify a Single sided disk.

Does anyone have any information or thoughts on this?

ZrX
Posts: 439
Joined: Tue Dec 06, 2011 9:09 pm

Re: Kryoflux Flippy Disk Preservation Commands

Post by ZrX » Sun Jun 03, 2018 10:29 pm

If you dump a real double sided disk as a flippy your options are to either redump it as normal disk of rename the side 1 streamfiles as they're now misaligned by 8 tracks (which also makes you lose the last 8 tracks of that side, if those were used).

JasonCA
Posts: 32
Joined: Tue Oct 11, 2011 3:37 am
Location: California

Re: Kryoflux Flippy Disk Preservation Commands

Post by JasonCA » Sun Jun 03, 2018 10:47 pm

ZrX wrote:
Sun Jun 03, 2018 10:29 pm
If you dump a real double sided disk as a flippy your options are to either redump it as normal disk of rename the side 1 streamfiles as they're now misaligned by 8 tracks (which also makes you lose the last 8 tracks of that side, if those were used).
That's great! At least now I know I have an option even though this is done manually :) . As I'm understanding this, the options are:

1) Re-Dump the disk ussing the Flippy or Normal Double Sided commands.
2) Rename the Preservation Streamfiles as they are misaligned by 8 tracks.

Assuming I originally dumped using the Flippy commands which dumps from Track -8.1 to Track 82 and discover it's really a Normal Double Sided disk, why would I "lose" any information at all? It would seem I have enough tracks that can be renamed in the Preservation Stream to make a Normal Double Sided disk?

BTW, thanks for this suggestion. I've learned as of recent through SomeGuy that Tracks can be moved around which I was not aware of. I'm glad to know Kryoflux is flexible in this way! Although, I have yet to try to rename or move a track around. I'll attempt this at some point here. :)

brightcaster
Posts: 125
Joined: Fri Nov 08, 2013 10:48 pm

Re: Kryoflux Flippy Disk Preservation Commands

Post by brightcaster » Mon Jun 04, 2018 7:41 am

JasonCA wrote:
Sun Jun 03, 2018 10:22 pm
In observation, I have noticed that in a lot of my dumps I either get the following for Track 18 Byte 3 in the BAM:

0x00 - Single sided disk
0x80 - Double sided disk
0x2A - ????? :o

In looking into this, I've not been able to find any information as to why 0x2A is often found at Track 18 Byte 3. However, it would seem Byte value of 0x00 and 0x2A both signify a Single sided disk.

Does anyone have any information or thoughts on this?
It's only the top bit on byte 3 in the BAM that matters. There have been fast formating programs (can't remember the name) which wrote something else to byte 3 for whatever reason. I'm not sure by now but could be GEOS which wrote 0x2a to it (byte 3 was marked as "unused" in documentation for the 1541 and was first "used" officially with the upcoming of the 1571 drive).

David

PS: There may be useful information in this dokument also:

http://www.geraldholdsworth.co.uk/DiscI ... cImage.pdf

JasonCA
Posts: 32
Joined: Tue Oct 11, 2011 3:37 am
Location: California

Re: Kryoflux Flippy Disk Preservation Commands

Post by JasonCA » Sat Jun 09, 2018 8:30 am

brightcaster wrote:
Mon Jun 04, 2018 7:41 am
It's only the top bit on byte 3 in the BAM that matters. There have been fast formating programs (can't remember the name) which wrote something else to byte 3 for whatever reason. I'm not sure by now but could be GEOS which wrote 0x2a to it (byte 3 was marked as "unused" in documentation for the 1541 and was first "used" officially with the upcoming of the 1571 drive).

David

PS: There may be useful information in this dokument also:

http://www.geraldholdsworth.co.uk/DiscI ... cImage.pdf
Thanks brightcaster for the link to the DiscImage.pdf by Gerald J Holdsworth. Looks like he just released this 2 months ago in 2018! Quite a bit of valuable information in there! :)

On it says Offset 0x03 of Byte Size of 1 is
Sides (top bit set for double sided)
And you said
It's only the top bit on byte 3 in the BAM that matters.
You are right :idea: ! I've become so used to looking at 0x00 and 0x80 that I forgot it was actually a bit and not a byte! So the 0x2A is really still Single Sided/Flippy as the top bit is not set in that case.

Although this 0x2A has not been a problem to deal with, I've just been more curious as to why the 3rd byte in the BAM is often found to be 0x2A instead of only 0x00 or 0x80? More of mystery than anything else really. Apparently the "Guide To Disk Formats" doesn't make mention to this directly. However, as you have suggested maybe it's a fast formatting program, GEOS desktop, or otherwise.

It does say as you have suggested:
BAM offset 0x03 will be 0x00 for 1541 (single sided) and 0x80 for 1571 (double sided)
That make sense since the 1541 only has a single head.

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