Problems/advice with ripping Apple ][ 5.25" floppies...

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joejoetheclown
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Joined: Sat Jan 10, 2015 6:01 am

Problems/advice with ripping Apple ][ 5.25" floppies...

Post by joejoetheclown » Sat Jan 10, 2015 6:32 am

Hello all,

Please forgive my fairly standard questions, but this is the first time I've tried to use my Kryoflux. I'm attempting to archive some stacks of 5.25" floppies from my childhood Apple IIe using a Kryoflux and DTC on a windows host. However none of the disk images I extract are able to be opened in Ciderpress or AppleWin. I've spent the whole afternoon researching this forum and google searching and trying countless command line options, but I can't seem to get anything workable.

One of the discs that I experimented with was an Apple Logo Toolkit disc, because I had a known good .dsk file to compare it against. Firstly I tried the command line dtc -fLogo_Disk.dsk -g0 -e39 -i8a which reported reading all of the tracks OK, but all of the track numbers after track 0 were off by a power of 2 (an artifact of reading a 40 track disc on an 80 track drive maybe? EDIT: turns out all three of my drives calibrate to 40 track)

00.0 : frev: 34119, drift: 0.603 us, tfer: 178344 B/s, rpm: 300.047
00.0 : base: 3.908 us [97.152%], band: 3.920 us, 7.816 us, 11.580 us?
00.0 : Apple DOS 3.3: OK, trk: 000, sec: 16
02.0 : frev: 29225, drift: 0.021 us, tfer: 160176 B/s, rpm: 300.039
02.0 : base: 3.908 us [97.479%], band: 3.891 us, 7.816 us, 11.688 us?
02.0 : Apple DOS 3.3: OK*, trk: 001[002], sec: 16, *T
...

But the output image generated "doesn't appear to be a valid archive or disk image" in Ciderpress. If I use the Disc Sector Viewer though it looks like the other apple disk images I downloaded online. Running a diff against the known-good .dsk image of the same Logo Toolkit disc showed some differences, but they were mostly similar.

When I tried using the java DTC applet and the DSK, DOS 3.3 Interleave setting I got the attached screen output; do all Apple // formatted discs report similar track errors?
dsk_mode_cap.jpg
Stream mode looked like this:
stream_mode_cap.jpg
I've tried ripping with three different 5.25" drives (a Teac FD-55BR, a Panasonic, and a Newtronics/mitsumi) and they all produce the exact same output file, so maybe my disc is bad? Or am I just doing something else stupid? I'd figured it could just be a bad, degraded floppy, but all 10 or 15 floppies that I tried to rip (alot of them actual commercial discs) all had the same problem- none of them produced a file Ciderpress could open. I don't know enough about the DOS format to post-mortem this unfortunately. If it would help I could up the extracted .dsk file if anyone knowledgeable about such things has a moment to look at it.

Anyway, I'd appreciate any advice or at least some sane command line options for making a .dsk image of an Apple II disc with dtc. I'd love to try and salvage at least some of the data off of these floppies now that I've invested in the Kryoflux and drives.

Cheers,
jj
Last edited by joejoetheclown on Sat Jan 10, 2015 6:29 pm, edited 1 time in total.

joejoetheclown
Posts: 3
Joined: Sat Jan 10, 2015 6:01 am

Re: Problems/advice with ripping Apple ][ 5.25" floppies...

Post by joejoetheclown » Sat Jan 10, 2015 5:27 pm

A quick bit of additional info, after a few more hours reading forum posts-

All three of the drives I have calibrate to 41 tracks. I thought this would be sufficient for DOS 3.3 discs, but maybe I'm wrong on that? For the record they are a TEAC FD-55BR, Panasonic JU-455-5, and Newtronics D503...

Thanks again for any advice or help; sadly there isn't a walkthrough anywhere for going from Apple discs to emulator via the Kryoflux, but I intend on writing one.

Cheers,
jj

brightcaster
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Re: Problems/advice with ripping Apple ][ 5.25" floppies...

Post by brightcaster » Sun Jan 11, 2015 9:26 am

What I see from the pictures looks like only even tracks (0,2,4,6...) are read! Thats okay with a 80-track drive reading 40-track disks, but as you use a 40-track drive should fail imho! 80-track drives are recomended on all cases for reading!

David

joejoetheclown
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Re: Problems/advice with ripping Apple ][ 5.25" floppies...

Post by joejoetheclown » Tue Jan 13, 2015 1:32 am

Thanks for your reply David,

I ordered a Teac FD-55GFR to attempt this again. Just for my clarification, can anyone confirm that you definitely need/should use an 80 track drive to rip 360k apple // floppies? It just seems counter-intuitive to me, but again I'm not an expert of the physical mediums.

Much thanks,
jj

brightcaster
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Re: Problems/advice with ripping Apple ][ 5.25" floppies...

Post by brightcaster » Tue Jan 13, 2015 3:38 pm

As far as I remember the early apple drives where 80 track drives using double stepps to behave as 40 track drives (like with the 1541-drive for the c64). But I don't know if they used 48tpi org 96tpi heads. If the used 96tpi heads It would be strongly recommended to use a 80 track drive to read them.

Please read also this thread for some details: viewtopic.php?f=3&t=6&p=7&hilit=apple+ii#p7

David

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IFW
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Re: Problems/advice with ripping Apple ][ 5.25" floppies...

Post by IFW » Thu Jan 22, 2015 12:49 pm

Yes, please use a 80 track drive, many early systems used 80 track drive mechanisms and double stepping, like David said above.
When imaging A2 disks it is also important that the drive filtering/AGC could be switched to DD mode, so it won't generate random noise (weak bits) when reading longer flux reversals present in these encodings.
Using the -DDx parameter can change the drive mode, if the drive actually supports that and is jumpered to work that way.

spags
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Location: Australia

Re: Problems/advice with ripping Apple ][ 5.25" floppies...

Post by spags » Sun Feb 01, 2015 9:20 pm

IFW wrote:Using the -DDx parameter can change the drive mode, if the drive actually supports that and is jumpered to work that way.
Presumably this means use -DD0 to disable, however for Apple // floppies I found this would almost always cause bad reads. When I use -DD1, I get really good reads (even better than if I don't specify a -DD parameter). Is this to be expected? It sounds contrary to what is being described here.

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mr.vince
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Re: Problems/advice with ripping Apple ][ 5.25" floppies...

Post by mr.vince » Mon Feb 02, 2015 7:40 am

Can be configured on drive with jumpers. So yes, you might need to turn it on or not. Trial and error.

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IFW
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Re: Problems/advice with ripping Apple ][ 5.25" floppies...

Post by IFW » Mon Feb 09, 2015 4:16 pm

Sadly there is no way of telling which one is correct, other than trying, since usually the drive can be jumpered to various configurations.
That's why I used -DDx rather than saying use -dd0 or -dd1 specifically.

lionelb
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Re: Problems/advice with ripping Apple ][ 5.25" floppies...

Post by lionelb » Wed Jan 11, 2017 10:23 am

Hello, i have the same problem and i try to find solutions for my father's apple II disks !
Do you find a solution ????
I have the same screen with pairs and i try 5 differents drive with the same result...
Thank if someone hear me... ;)
Lionel

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