Initial install: control command rejected by the device

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Orange Hedgehog
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Joined: Fri Apr 23, 2021 6:00 pm

Initial install: control command rejected by the device

Post by Orange Hedgehog »

I'm using Windows 10 Pro (20H2).

I followed the instructions in the QuickStart pdf but when I first ran the command dtc -c2, it reported "Control command rejected by the device", followed by "CM: maxtrack=0".

When I checked the Events tab in the device's properties, this is the text listed:

Device USB\VID_03EB&PID_6124\00000000 was configured.

Driver Name: oem47.inf
Class Guid: {36fc9e60-c465-11cf-8056-444553540000}
Driver Date: 10/03/2009
Driver Version: 1.0.0.2
Driver Provider: www.softpres.org
Driver Section: USB_Install
Driver Rank: 0xFF0001
Matching Device Id: USB\VID_03EB&PID_6124
Outranked Drivers:
Device Updated: false
Parent Device: USB\ROOT_HUB30\5&1171eda9&0&0

This was all done using an account with Administrator privileges.

I copied the KryoFlux files to a sub-folder of the Program Files folder for ease of locating them later.

The Command Prompt window shown is prior to connecting the ribbon cable to a single 3.5" drive and, of course, prior to powering the 3.5" drive. There is a mention of 'you'll see an error' message, just repeat the command after connecting and powering the floppy drive. I got the same response from running the command after connecting the floppy drive.

I also restarted the computer and tried running the command again, with the same result.

Checked the ribbon cable, red line by pin one indicator at both ends: check ✔.
Light illuminating on the floppy drive: check ✔.
LEDs on the KryoFlux: illuminated and steady. ✔

The KryoFlux is powered by a USB 3.0 directly from the mainboard and located inside the tower case.



NB: I simply want to be able to access my 3.5" and 5¼" drives through Windows Explorer to ensure I don't lose any legacy data. From the product description when I purchased this, I thought that would a) be possible and b) be simple. It's not feeling like that. :-(

If this product doesn't perform this way, then I guess I just need to accept that the IT industry is being wasteful by forcing the disposal of perfectly working devices in favour of their ease by not having to provide support for legacy devices and forcing the consumer to a) throw away devices and b) switch to USB devices, which rather inconveniently don't fit into the slots of a tower case!! Grrrr. (Yes, I am grateful that a product like the KryoFlux exists, but only if it does what I ultimately want it to.)
Attachments
KryoFlux DiscSystem Images from setup.zip
Compressed folder of Device Manager/Device Properties screenshots (for some unknown reason the forum prevented me uploading more than three images individually, although it didn't give me any error messages and all the files combines are less then the 2 MiB maximum, just another frustration I didn't need :-( ).
(97.88 KiB) Downloaded 3 times
Device Manager view, showing the KryoFlux device identified.
Device Manager view, showing the KryoFlux device identified.
Command Prompt showing the rejection of the command.
Command Prompt showing the rejection of the command.
Control Command Rejected.PNG (11.17 KiB) Viewed 255 times
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mr.vince
Posts: 2174
Joined: Tue Oct 05, 2010 5:48 pm

Re: Initial install: control command rejected by the device

Post by mr.vince »

Just to clarify: all LEDs (three) on the KF board are steadily lit and illuminated?

BTW: It's clearly outlined in docs and product description that KF will not make the disk available through Explorer. Windows has removed this functionality and even if it were present, this would not fit our approach of preserving.
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IFW
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Re: Initial install: control command rejected by the device

Post by IFW »

The device wouldn't be found if the driver were present, so it's probably fine, but you should definitely see LEDs flashing on the board once you try this command as mr.vince said.

However, does the drive have its own power supply?
You will get similar messages if e.g. the drive is not powered.
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Orange Hedgehog
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Re: Initial install: control command rejected by the device

Post by Orange Hedgehog »

There were three steady LEDs.

The KryoFlux board was powered via USB.

The floppy drive was powered separately but that's irrlevant to the first 'Command not recognised' message because the floppy drive isn't connected at that time.
mr.vince wrote: Mon Apr 26, 2021 12:46 pm It's clearly outlined in docs and product description that KF will not make the disk available through Explorer. Windows has removed this functionality and even if it were present, this would not fit our approach of preserving.
It was not clear enough when I was looking at the product way back in November last year, otherwise I wouldn't have spent/wasted the money on it. I was focussed on a product which would fit inside the case and enable the use of the drives. I've now got a paperweight, albeit one which is also virtually useless in that role too because it's not really heavy enough to hold paper down. 😢
mr.vince wrote: Mon Apr 26, 2021 12:46 pm BTW: It's clearly outlined in docs and product description that KF will not make the disk available through Explorer. Windows has removed this functionality and even if it were present, this would not fit our approach of preserving.
Having just checked the Home and Features pages, I still find no definitive statement that the product specifically cannot be used within Windows explorer. Such a fact is something which should really be highlighted prominently on both of these pages to prevent people paying money for a product which won't meet their needs. If there is a clear statement to the effect that KryoFlux cannot be used to access drives within Windows Explorer it is buried elsewhere, somewhere far too deep. Customers should not have to go searching for such a fundamental bit of information.

To say I'm disappointed is an under-statement.
Attachments
Screenshot of the KryoFlux Home page
Screenshot of the KryoFlux Home page
Screenshot of the KryoFlux Features page
Screenshot of the KryoFlux Features page
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mr.vince
Posts: 2174
Joined: Tue Oct 05, 2010 5:48 pm

Re: Initial install: control command rejected by the device

Post by mr.vince »

The whole software suite and all manuals are available for download and can be evaluated before purchase. I've also never seen any product advertising what can't be done with the product.

Are you interested in getting your device set up? Then please answer our questions above.

EDIT: Ok, I see that you have posted three replies back to back which we will combine soon.

To address the LEDs: you write that all three LEDs are lit. Can you post a photo of these please?

Also, the above makes sense. If no drive is connected, KF will report a "command rejected" error because the drive is not responding.
brightcaster
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Re: Initial install: control command rejected by the device

Post by brightcaster »

I don't think that you have to list everything that a product can't do if you advertise it, but that it is enough to describe what you can do with it! And that is exactly described in the examples you have given: "Read at lowest level possible" and "save as raw streams or common sector formats". That's what it does.

But kryoflux can't bring you a beer, it can't do your laundry, it can't cook your favorite dish, it can't do your tax return either.... (can be continued indefinitely!)

David
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Orange Hedgehog
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Re: Initial install: control command rejected by the device

Post by Orange Hedgehog »

brightcaster wrote: Mon Apr 26, 2021 7:06 pm But kryoflux can't bring you a beer, it can't do your laundry, it can't cook your favorite dish, it can't do your tax return either.... (can be continued indefinitely!)
David,

I trust I don't have to point how how absurd the parallels you've have drawn between a flooppy controller and entirely unrelated capabilities are? I can only assume it's an attempt at sarcasm and therefore of zero value as an argument.
KryoFlux Home page text wrote:If you are looking for the most reliable and fast transfer tool for floppy disks, look no further.
Remember, this for a floppy controller. A floppy controller which doesn't support natively accessing floppy disks within the OS file explorer application‽ Such use would be fast. And people seriously believe it's okay to not make a clear disclaimer that that is not indeed possible? That is what is absurd.


Oh, and here, David, is an analogy which makes much more sense than the analogies you suggested: If you buy tires for your car, you expect to be able to fit the tyres and then drive the car on normal roads. You do not expect to have to install a further specially supplied interface between the tyres and the road infrastructure first. Sounds absurd? Yeah, thought so. And this is within the realm of similar use.
mr.vince wrote: Mon Apr 26, 2021 6:58 pm The whole software suite and all manuals are available for download and can be evaluated before purchase. I've also never seen any product advertising what can't be done with the product.
There's a level of reasonableness. This product is a floppy controller, therefore it is reasonable to expect to be able to access the floppy disk contents quickly. Indeed the Home page says the product is fast. The fastest way to access files is using the native file explorer application, not a third party application, or any intermediary applications or processes.

Does the DTC GUI enable dragging and dropping of files found on the disk to Windows Explorer, or some other easy mechanism to inspect and access the files?

Is there a one-shot way to extract (standard PC) files into a natively readable format which doesn't require any further intermediary software?

For example, if a wordprocessor document is found, how easy is it to copy that file from the disk to a folder which the OS file explorer can access?
mr.vince wrote: Mon Apr 26, 2021 6:58 pm To address the LEDs: you write that all three LEDs are lit. Can you post a photo of these please?
Prior to running the command "dtc -c2" only the red LED is illuminated

After running the command "dtc -c2", the green and yellow LEDs go dark, flicker, then settle down with both the green LED and yellow LED alternately going dark momentarily (say for about 100ms). The red LED remains steady.

Photo of the KryoFlux with ribbon cable and USB connected.  The red, green and yellow LEDs can be seen to be illuminated.  The jumpers are set for single device.
Photo of the KryoFlux with ribbon cable and USB connected. The red, green and yellow LEDs can be seen to be illuminated. The jumpers are set for single device.

This is the same regardless of whether the floppy drive is connected or not. I have noticed this morning that the LED on the floppy drive is remaining illuminated once it has been powered, regardless of whether the dtc command has been issued.
mr.vince wrote: Mon Apr 26, 2021 6:58 pmAlso, the above makes sense. If no drive is connected, KF will report a "command rejected" error because the drive is not responding.
  • It says "command rejected by device" whether the floppy drive is connected (and powered) or not
  • "Command rejected by device" is not the documented error message for when the KyroFlux is first installed. i.e. Deviation from the expected behaviour.
Here's the connection to the floppy drive, before (to clearly show the 'K1' marking) and after attaching the ribbon cable.

Floppy drive ribbon connector, with and without ribbon cable attached
Floppy drive ribbon connector, with and without ribbon cable attached

I have also tried the other 3.5" connector at the far end of the ribbon cable, after the twist. This made no difference.
brightcaster
Posts: 380
Joined: Fri Nov 08, 2013 10:48 pm

Re: Initial install: control command rejected by the device

Post by brightcaster »

Could it be that the card edge connector (the unused one for 5,25" drives) is shortening some pins to ground on the mounting plate (in the last picture it looks like being possible)?

If the LED on the drive is constantly illuminated the drive select wire is shortened to ground (which can happen also if one of the connectors is plugged in backwards, which is not the case on the pictures).

If you just want to get the files of MS-DOS/Windows floppy images you can use the disk browser feature of the HxC Tool:

https://hxc2001.com/download/floppy_dri ... r_soft.zip

David
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mr.vince
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Re: Initial install: control command rejected by the device

Post by mr.vince »

Orange Hedgehog wrote: Tue Apr 27, 2021 10:48 am I can only assume it's an attempt at sarcasm and therefore of zero value as an argument.
No, he is spot on. This is a forensic (!) floppy controller and it works as advertised. It does not do other things.

The major issue with this discussion is that it wastes time. It's leading nowhere. Of course you can extract data from images with additional free and commercial tools, we do this all the time and it's a breeze. Every emulator can do this, or tools like Total Commander with the IMG plugin, etc. Instead of the rant above, you could have pinned such questions and we'd have answered them by now.

Because of this and to use our ressources for useful stuff, this sub topic is ending here. Further posts in this regard will cause closure of this thread.

Still, happy to solve your problem so:
Orange Hedgehog wrote: Tue Apr 27, 2021 10:48 am I have noticed this morning that the LED on the floppy drive is remaining illuminated once it has been powered, regardless of whether the dtc command has been issued.
So you are having a hardware problem. My best bet is that the connector is flipped. Try reversing it. It definitely means "drive select" (the signal) is active or at least seen as active by the drive. This happens when the floppy cable is reversed or shorted (short circuit).

Orange Hedgehog wrote: Tue Apr 27, 2021 10:48 am
mr.vince wrote: Mon Apr 26, 2021 6:58 pmAlso, the above makes sense. If no drive is connected, KF will report a "command rejected" error because the drive is not responding.
  • It says "command rejected by device" whether the floppy drive is connected (and powered) or not
  • "Command rejected by device" is not the documented error message for when the KyroFlux is first installed. i.e. Deviation from the expected behaviour.
No the expected behaviour is correct (before drivers are installed). You have the driver installed and therefore, when unable to communicate with the DRIVE (not the board - which will give a device initialization error) KF will report the error shown. It's correct to happen when no drive is connected. If a drive is connected, there is either a problem with the data cable or the drive is not powered. If the drive is powered (which makes sense because of the green LED) then it's very likely the cable. Other problems could be if the connections are shorted because the board is on a conductive surface.

I would recommend teporarily unmounting the stuff from the computer and diagnosing this on a table, it'll give more oversight and you eliminate the problem of hidden short circuits.

Orange Hedgehog wrote: Tue Apr 27, 2021 10:48 am Here's the connection to the floppy drive, before (to clearly show the 'K1' marking) and after attaching the ribbon cable.
And who says the marking on e.g. the drive is correct? We do have seen drives where the connector had the marking on the wrong side. If the green drive LED comes on the moment the drive is attached to KF and does not turn off even if KF is poweredn, then there definitely is a short on "drive select". Since floppy signals are low active, a short will activate a line/signal.

Also worth checking: constant removal of these ribbon cables can cause wires to break. If you have another floppy cable around, give this a try, but don't constantly swap for the reason mentioned.
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