Stream backup quality of 3,5" drives

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sky76
Posts: 35
Joined: Sat Jun 27, 2015 1:27 pm

Stream backup quality of 3,5" drives

Post by sky76 » Wed Sep 30, 2015 6:13 am

Is it in any way possible to determine which floppy drives are providing the best streaming backup quality from Amiga DD disks? I have several drives and would like to find out which are "good ones" for backup and also for successful restore (probably later).

HD:
ALPS DF 354H1 68F (max=83)
Mitsumi D359 M3 (max=82, but probably better results? the scatter plots seem to be more "tight" - don't know if this means "good" or "not so good")

DD:
Chinon FZ-357 0002 Made in Malaysia (Board ID 338F4C0 SEP01AZ) (max=83) (probably A600/A1200)
Chinon FB-354 0005 (max=83) (probably A2000)
Mitsumi D359 T5 (max=83) (from CD32 Shuttle)
Panasonic JU 253 043P (max=83) (2 versions, from A1200)
Panasonic JU 257A605P (max=83)

Attached are the logs from the backup of an unprotected ADOS game (F18 Interceptor). I could also attach the different stream backups or try to backup a very strong copy protected game (GemX, Hawkeye, etc).

I've analyzed the stream backups with HxC Floppy Analyzer and they "look very similar".

Note: When I referred to "stream backup" I meant reading the original disk and writing KF-RAW files to my computer, not writing the KF-RAW files back to a new floppy disk.
Attachments
Drives.zip
Log files from stream backups
(86.11 KiB) Downloaded 74 times
A1200 + Indivision AGA + ACA1233 & Blizzard 1230IV+SCSI + easynet
A600 + Indivision ECS + ACA620 + A604n // CD32 + SX32 MK2 + Indivision AGA
A500 + ACA500 + 5 spare A500's (one with the C= key, Serial No 3358)

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IFW
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Re: Stream backup quality of 3,5" drives

Post by IFW » Fri Oct 02, 2015 12:52 pm

What you can try is to use the GUI and see the scatter plots, especially for later tracks starting around track 70.
What you should see is clear bands with very visible blank areas around them, no "bleeding" or "spots" between the bands or very fat bands.

It may be just bad luck, but I think I had an ALPS drive that had a very high index signal jitter, rendering dumps useless and troublesome, not to mention useless for writing.

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IFW
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Re: Stream backup quality of 3,5" drives

Post by IFW » Fri Oct 02, 2015 12:52 pm

Ie check the graphs, not the logs for this.

sky76
Posts: 35
Joined: Sat Jun 27, 2015 1:27 pm

Re: Stream backup quality of 3,5" drives

Post by sky76 » Sat Oct 03, 2015 11:36 am

Thanks for pointing this out! I've checked the graphs and there are some interesting(?) results which I'll post here. The later tracks (60ies and 70ies) look very similar on all drives. I've spotted some "interesting" patterns on track 24 (side 0), track 8 (side 0), track 9 (side 1) and also track 80 (side 1). Maybe the results could tell something about the drive or about the way the flux data read from the drive is interpreted by the Kryoflux device or the way these eight drives interpret 3,5" DD floppies.
A1200 + Indivision AGA + ACA1233 & Blizzard 1230IV+SCSI + easynet
A600 + Indivision ECS + ACA620 + A604n // CD32 + SX32 MK2 + Indivision AGA
A500 + ACA500 + 5 spare A500's (one with the C= key, Serial No 3358)

User avatar
IFW
Posts: 3079
Joined: Mon Nov 08, 2010 2:42 pm

Re: Stream backup quality of 3,5" drives

Post by IFW » Sat Oct 03, 2015 12:20 pm

Well, the host software interprets the data the same way as it has no way of knowing what kind of drive you are using - so what you see is how and what the drive sees on the track.

Only try commercially duplicated software for this - they use very good pre-compensation (usually...), unlike home written disks, so the differences you might see with various drives will be only related to the drive, rather than peak shifts caused by poor pre-compensation.

sky76
Posts: 35
Joined: Sat Jun 27, 2015 1:27 pm

Re: Stream backup quality of 3,5" drives

Post by sky76 » Sat Oct 03, 2015 12:22 pm

Disk: FA-18 Interceptor
Track: 8
Side: 0

Drives:

ALPS DF354 H168F (used) IBM-PC HD
Panasonic JU-253-043P (new) Amiga DD
Panasonic JU-253-043P (old) Amiga DD
Panasonic JU-257-A605P (new) DD
ALPS-253n-253o-257.jpg
Chinon FB-354 (good) Amiga DD
Chinon FZ-357 (good) Amiga DD
Mitsumi D359-M3 (used) IBM-PC HD
Mitsumi D359-T5 (new) Amiga DD
354-357-359M3-359T5.jpg
A1200 + Indivision AGA + ACA1233 & Blizzard 1230IV+SCSI + easynet
A600 + Indivision ECS + ACA620 + A604n // CD32 + SX32 MK2 + Indivision AGA
A500 + ACA500 + 5 spare A500's (one with the C= key, Serial No 3358)

sky76
Posts: 35
Joined: Sat Jun 27, 2015 1:27 pm

Re: Stream backup quality of 3,5" drives

Post by sky76 » Sat Oct 03, 2015 12:24 pm

Disk: FA-18 Interceptor
Track: 9
Side: 1

Drives:

ALPS DF354 H168F (used) IBM-PC HD
Panasonic JU-253-043P (new) Amiga DD
Panasonic JU-253-043P (old) Amiga DD
Panasonic JU-257-A605P (new) DD
ALPS-253n-253o-257.jpg
Chinon FB-354 (good) Amiga DD
Chinon FZ-357 (good) Amiga DD
Mitsumi D359-M3 (used) IBM-PC HD
Mitsumi D359-T5 (new) Amiga DD
354-357-359M3-359T5.jpg
A1200 + Indivision AGA + ACA1233 & Blizzard 1230IV+SCSI + easynet
A600 + Indivision ECS + ACA620 + A604n // CD32 + SX32 MK2 + Indivision AGA
A500 + ACA500 + 5 spare A500's (one with the C= key, Serial No 3358)

sky76
Posts: 35
Joined: Sat Jun 27, 2015 1:27 pm

Re: Stream backup quality of 3,5" drives

Post by sky76 » Sat Oct 03, 2015 12:25 pm

Disk: FA-18 Interceptor
Track: 24
Side: 0

Drives:

ALPS DF354 H168F (used) IBM-PC HD
Panasonic JU-253-043P (new) Amiga DD
Panasonic JU-253-043P (old) Amiga DD
Panasonic JU-257-A605P (new) DD
ALPS-253n-253o-257.jpg
Chinon FB-354 (good) Amiga DD
Chinon FZ-357 (good) Amiga DD
Mitsumi D359-M3 (used) IBM-PC HD
Mitsumi D359-T5 (new) Amiga DD
354-357-359M3-359T5.jpg
A1200 + Indivision AGA + ACA1233 & Blizzard 1230IV+SCSI + easynet
A600 + Indivision ECS + ACA620 + A604n // CD32 + SX32 MK2 + Indivision AGA
A500 + ACA500 + 5 spare A500's (one with the C= key, Serial No 3358)

sky76
Posts: 35
Joined: Sat Jun 27, 2015 1:27 pm

Re: Stream backup quality of 3,5" drives

Post by sky76 » Sat Oct 03, 2015 12:27 pm

Disk: FA-18 Interceptor
Track: 80 (!) => UNFORMATTED BTW: These are the last images I'll post - no worries ;)
Side: 1

Drives:

ALPS DF354 H168F (used) IBM-PC HD
Panasonic JU-253-043P (new) Amiga DD
Panasonic JU-253-043P (old) Amiga DD
Panasonic JU-257-A605P (new) DD
ALPS-253n-253o-257.jpg
Chinon FB-354 (good) Amiga DD
Chinon FZ-357 (good) Amiga DD
Mitsumi D359-M3 (used) IBM-PC HD
Mitsumi D359-T5 (new) Amiga DD
354-357-359M3-359T5.jpg
A1200 + Indivision AGA + ACA1233 & Blizzard 1230IV+SCSI + easynet
A600 + Indivision ECS + ACA620 + A604n // CD32 + SX32 MK2 + Indivision AGA
A500 + ACA500 + 5 spare A500's (one with the C= key, Serial No 3358)

sky76
Posts: 35
Joined: Sat Jun 27, 2015 1:27 pm

Re: Stream backup quality of 3,5" drives

Post by sky76 » Sat Oct 03, 2015 1:03 pm

Phew. That was hard photoshop work. There are many thoughts on this, but I'm no expert and maybe there is just nothing which can be derived from these scatterplots, but I'll give it a try:

On track 8/0, the Mitsumi D359-T5 (DD!) seems to have the "tightest" scatterplot lines.

On track 9/1, the ALPS (HD) has some big spreading jitter in the "highest band" and the Mitsumi D359-M3 (HD) ist tightest one.

On track 24/0, the Chinon FZ-357 and Panasonic 257 (DD) seem to have a very good distinction between the three bands (scatter-"concentration" in the higher bands leave clearly visible "gaps" in the lowest band, which I would assume could mean a good "seperation" of frequencies, i.e. bands to be detected easier?
Also, on track 9/1 theses two drives detect the beginning and the end of the lowest band in a different way (the "ends" are more thin) than the other drives - can these two drives "see" something other drives cannot see?
On the contrary, ALPS, Chinon FZ-357 and Panasonic 257 seem to have the most "jitter spreading" which I assume is bad?
But on this track (24/0) also the ALPS and Chinon FB-354 look "tighter" than at least the Panasonics.

Just for the record: I archived 95% of my disks with the IBM-PC HD drives (ALPS & Mitsumi M3) and a lot with the Chinon FZ-357 (which I originally thought was an Amiga HD drive but turned out to be an Amiga DD drive).

Should I try to kryoflux a really tough protected game instead (FA/18 is 100% Amiga sector image) in order to discover which of theses drives would have the "best" preservation quality potential? I fully understand that with standard Amiga sector images/disks all my considerations are useless, because you also have the ADF for replicating onto real floppy media or emulation, but I only care about these "non-ADF-disks" where mostly grey or orange tracks show up in the GUI and you don't know whether the drive has done a "good job" or not. ;)
A1200 + Indivision AGA + ACA1233 & Blizzard 1230IV+SCSI + easynet
A600 + Indivision ECS + ACA620 + A604n // CD32 + SX32 MK2 + Indivision AGA
A500 + ACA500 + 5 spare A500's (one with the C= key, Serial No 3358)

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