Dumping C64 both Side Disk with Chinon FZ-502 DD Floppy Disc

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aesi
Posts: 3
Joined: Thu Jun 27, 2013 11:34 am

Dumping C64 both Side Disk with Chinon FZ-502 DD Floppy Disc

Post by aesi »

I have a question for C64 both side dumping discs. I have a floppy Chinon FZ-502, DD. I have rebuilt these so I can also Dumping the back sides of the floppy.

Unfortunately, the head quilting only 2 tracks and not as normal as one.

Does anyone know the correct command dtc? I try so much, but had no success.

Here is the dumping File:

e:\Temp\retro\kryoflux_2.20_windows\dtc>dtc -ffilename.d64 -g0 -i6 -dd1

KryoFlux DiskTool Console, v2.20, uiv.1, Feb 22 2013, 18:52:16
(c) 2009-2013 KryoFlux Products & Services Ltd.
Developed by The Software Preservation Society, http://www.softpres.org
Licensed for private, non-commercial use only.
00.0 : frev: 31658, drift: 1.040 us, tfer: 146559 B/s, rpm: 299.425
00.0 : base: 3.245 us [99.760%], band: 3.245 us, 6.490 us, 9.718 us?
00.0 : CBM DOS: OK, trk: 001, sec: 21
02.0 : frev: 31686, drift: 0.021 us, tfer: 146559 B/s, rpm: 299.408
02.0 : base: 3.251 us [99.934%], band: 3.250 us, 6.503 us, 9.740 us?
02.0 : CBM DOS: OK*, trk: 002[003], sec: 21, *T
04.0 : frev: 31701, drift: 0.562 us, tfer: 146559 B/s, rpm: 299.402
04.0 : base: 3.253 us [99.861%], band: 3.247 us, 6.507 us, 9.733 us?
04.0 : CBM DOS: OK*, trk: 003[005], sec: 21, *T
06.0 : frev: 32816, drift: 0.125 us, tfer: 151648 B/s, rpm: 299.397
06.0 : base: 3.251 us [99.867%], band: 3.241 us, 6.502 us, 9.735 us
06.0 : CBM DOS: OK*, trk: 004[007], sec: 21, *HT +21
08.0 : frev: 35590, drift: 0.083 us, tfer: 165993 B/s, rpm: 299.407
08.0 : base: 3.249 us [99.830%], band: 3.235 us, 6.498 us, 9.734 us
08.0 : CBM DOS: OK*, trk: 005[009], sec: 21, *HT +21
10.0 : frev: 36037, drift: 0.146 us, tfer: 169135 B/s, rpm: 299.401
10.0 : base: 3.246 us [99.839%], band: 3.236 us, 6.491 us, 9.758 us
10.0 : CBM DOS: OK*, trk: 006[011], sec: 21, *HT +21
12.0 : frev: 33370, drift: 0.312 us, tfer: 153784 B/s, rpm: 299.412
12.0 : base: 3.248 us [99.503%], band: 3.242 us, 6.497 us, 9.664 us
12.0 : CBM DOS: OK*, trk: 007[013], sec: 21, *HT +21
14.0 : frev: 35924, drift: 0.083 us, tfer: 165017 B/s, rpm: 299.407
14.0 : base: 3.247 us [99.747%], band: 3.284 us, 6.495 us, 9.740 us
14.0 : CBM DOS: OK*, trk: 008[015], sec: 21, *HT +21
16.0 : frev: 35577, drift: 0.042 us, tfer: 166838 B/s, rpm: 299.413
16.0 : base: 3.248 us [99.779%], band: 3.284 us, 6.497 us, 9.756 us
16.0 : CBM DOS: OK*, trk: 009[017], sec: 21, *HT +21
18.0 : frev: 32883, drift: 0.104 us, tfer: 152708 B/s, rpm: 299.410
18.0 : base: 3.499 us [99.873%], band: 3.483 us, 6.998 us, 10.507 us
18.0 : CBM DOS: <error>, trk: 010[019], sec: 21, mis: 2, *HT +19
20.0 : frev: 32743, drift: 0.062 us, tfer: 151648 B/s, rpm: 299.415
20.0 : base: 3.500 us [99.873%], band: 3.482 us, 7.000 us, 10.508 us
20.0 : CBM DOS: <error>, trk: 011[021], sec: 21, mis: 2, *HT +19
22.0 : frev: 32818, drift: 0.062 us, tfer: 152000 B/s, rpm: 299.409
22.0 : base: 3.500 us [99.847%], band: 3.483 us, 6.999 us, 10.514 us
22.0 : CBM DOS: <error>, trk: 012[023], sec: 21, mis: 2, *HT +19
^C
e:\Temp\retro\kryoflux_2.20_windows\dtc>dtc -ffilename.d64 -g0 -i6 -dd1 -k2

KryoFlux DiskTool Console, v2.20, uiv.1, Feb 22 2013, 18:52:16
(c) 2009-2013 KryoFlux Products & Services Ltd.
Developed by The Software Preservation Society, http://www.softpres.org
Licensed for private, non-commercial use only.
00.0 : frev: 31658, drift: 1.207 us, tfer: 146559 B/s, rpm: 299.430
00.0 : base: 3.245 us [99.761%], band: 3.245 us, 6.490 us, 9.718 us?
00.0 : CBM DOS: OK, trk: 001, sec: 21
02.0 : frev: 31686, drift: 0.166 us, tfer: 146559 B/s, rpm: 299.410
02.0 : base: 3.251 us [99.938%], band: 3.250 us, 6.503 us, 9.741 us?
02.0 : CBM DOS: OK*, trk: 002[003], sec: 21, *T
04.0 : frev: 31702, drift: 0.125 us, tfer: 146559 B/s, rpm: 299.410
04.0 : base: 3.253 us [99.861%], band: 3.247 us, 6.507 us, 9.733 us?
04.0 : CBM DOS: OK*, trk: 003[005], sec: 21, *T
06.0 : frev: 32819, drift: 0.062 us, tfer: 151648 B/s, rpm: 299.400
06.0 : base: 3.249 us [99.852%], band: 3.241 us, 6.497 us, 9.733 us
06.0 : CBM DOS: OK*, trk: 004[007], sec: 21, *HT +21
08.0 : frev: 35594, drift: 0.083 us, tfer: 166555 B/s, rpm: 299.413
08.0 : base: 3.248 us [99.741%], band: 3.235 us, 6.497 us, 9.717 us
08.0 : CBM DOS: OK*, trk: 005[009], sec: 21, *HT +21
10.0 : frev: 36040, drift: 0.042 us, tfer: 169135 B/s, rpm: 299.407
10.0 : base: 3.245 us [99.798%], band: 3.236 us, 6.491 us, 9.734 us
10.0 : CBM DOS: OK*, trk: 006[011], sec: 21, *HT +21
12.0 : frev: 33369, drift: 0.645 us, tfer: 153784 B/s, rpm: 299.419
12.0 : base: 3.246 us [99.570%], band: 3.242 us, 6.491 us, 9.683 us
12.0 : CBM DOS: OK*, trk: 007[013], sec: 21, *HT +21
^C
e:\Temp\retro\kryoflux_2.20_windows\dtc>

User avatar
IFW
Posts: 3079
Joined: Mon Nov 08, 2010 2:42 pm

Re: Dumping C64 both Side Disk with Chinon FZ-502 DD Floppy

Post by IFW »

It looks like a 48 TPI drive...
Just like most 8 bit systems, a CBM drive is using a 96 TPI mechanism with a 48 TPI head, hence you'll need a 96 TPI drive as well - head size is likely to be 96 TPI for any modern drive, but that's fine.

aesi
Posts: 3
Joined: Thu Jun 27, 2013 11:34 am

Re: Dumping C64 both Side Disk with Chinon FZ-502 DD Floppy

Post by aesi »

Hm, it is a Floppy from the old Commodore PC 10 III with 360 KB i have used. You think i need a drive with 1,2 MB like HD?

User avatar
IFW
Posts: 3079
Joined: Mon Nov 08, 2010 2:42 pm

Re: Dumping C64 both Side Disk with Chinon FZ-502 DD Floppy

Post by IFW »

Yes, or at least a drive capable of using 80 tracks (96 TPI)
There is a thread about various drive types, and now there are people here who can modify a drive for you for flippy usage if you are interested in that - although it seems like you could already do that with this drive?

aesi
Posts: 3
Joined: Thu Jun 27, 2013 11:34 am

Re: Dumping C64 both Side Disk with Chinon FZ-502 DD Floppy

Post by aesi »

I recieved my Drive today. A friend has has converted me the drive, so I can read double-sided discs.
i´ll tested very soon, how does it works.
I will report.

:D

ErikFromCalifornia
Posts: 12
Joined: Sun Oct 28, 2012 6:24 am

Re: Dumping C64 both Side Disk with Chinon FZ-502 DD Floppy

Post by ErikFromCalifornia »

IFW wrote:Yes, or at least a drive capable of using 80 tracks (96 TPI)
There is a thread about various drive types, and now there are people here who can modify a drive for you for flippy usage if you are interested in that - although it seems like you could already do that with this drive?
Yeah? Who? When I asked about this in a prior post I got no where:

viewtopic.php?f=3&t=533

I wrote there, "I'm willing to pay for a modded flippy drive. Once I know I have that, I'm going to go forward and purchase a Kryoflux device too."

Because I can't get a flippy drive, I haven't purchased a Kryoflux and won't until I have a flippy drive I can use.

"now there are people here who can modify a drive for you for flippy usage if you are interested in that". Really? Just name one person. I have asked in the past...and gotten no where. In fact, the only response I got from you was "I think this might be of interest of many KryoFlux users". Uhhh..thanks...thanks for all your help! ***NOT!***

Until then...my commodore disk will sit in cryostasis until the technology evolves where I can finally transfer commodore disks using something (possibly other than Kryoflux).

User avatar
IFW
Posts: 3079
Joined: Mon Nov 08, 2010 2:42 pm

Re: Dumping C64 both Side Disk with Chinon FZ-502 DD Floppy

Post by IFW »

The modified drive required has nothing to do with KryoFlux.
It is a technical issue strictly due to how single sided versus double sided drives work - all of them.
So no, the technology will never ever evolve beyond that.
Your only alternative option is to build a new 5.25 drive design from scratch - short of that, you will need a flippy modded drive. In fact, commercial disks were duplicated exactly the same way, with flippy modded drives.

If you want to get a flippy modded drive you can contact the following users at the moment:
ZrX (Europe)
sncboom2k (US)

Additionally, Peepo is just offering to archive disks in the UK.

At the time you asked nobody had the means of modifying more than a single drive for their own personal use - the situation has changed for the better.
Please note however modding the drive is a lengthy process and these people do it in their spare time.

Thank you.

ErikFromCalifornia
Posts: 12
Joined: Sun Oct 28, 2012 6:24 am

Re: Dumping C64 both Side Disk with Chinon FZ-502 DD Floppy

Post by ErikFromCalifornia »

IFW wrote:The modified drive required has nothing to do with KryoFlux.
Uhhh, yes I realize this. But you are missing the point. What good is a KryoFlux if you need to transfer flippy disks but can't obtain a flippy modded drive? Therefore, there is no point (at least in my case) in getting a KryoFlux UNLESS I first am able to obtain a flippy modded drive *PERIOD*. It's like, if I don't have a car, what's the point of buying car tires? It makes no sense at all. In my case, because I want to transfer/dump C64 disks, a KryoFlux means nothing to me if the drive needed to transfer the the disks is unattainable. Thus, my point is that I haven't purchased a KryoFlux considering I've not been able to find someone who is able to build a drive.

Until your most recent post, I haven't been given any contacts of those who 'may' be willing to build me a drive. I did say though, I am willing to pay for it. It's not like I'm asking for a free modified drive. I'm saying, "Hey, I am willing to pay for someone to modify a drive for me". There are some who have the time or expertise in modifying drives to create a flippy drive! I think that is great! However, I just want to transfer my important flippy disks. I don't care to spend the time to experiment, destroy a few floppy drives, to finally create a flippy modded drive.

IFW wrote:It is a technical issue strictly due to how single sided versus double sided drives work - all of them.
So no, the technology will never ever evolve beyond that.
No, perhaps not, but maybe someone will invent something similar to a Kryoflux that can transfer Commodore disks in some other manner. It's just to say, I have to sit on transferring my Commodore disks, until I can obtain the technology required to transfer it. In terms of Kryoflux, I need to be able to obtain a modified flippy drive somehow to transfer the disks. Otherwise, Kryoflux is meaningless to me.
IFW wrote:Your only alternative option is to build a new 5.25 drive design from scratch - short of that, you will need a flippy modded drive. In fact, commercial disks were duplicated exactly the same way, with flippy modded drives.
I got it....I need a flippy modded drive. That part is clear! I have been looking for someone who can build me such a drive! That's what I've asked for in a prior post. It's only until now that you've informed me of TWO people who may be willing to create such a drive. And like I said, I'm willing to pay for the time someone else has spent to learn how to build a flippy modded drive. The end result is I want a flippy modded drive? Clear enough?
IFW wrote:If you want to get a flippy modded drive you can contact the following users at the moment:
ZrX (Europe)
sncboom2k (US)
Finally! You should make a sticky of those willing to build a flippy modded drive. Then there's a list of people who are willing to make a profit on creating a flippy modded drive for those who request one. This way, it's clear. Those who are willing and desire to do so, can volunteer to create a flippy drive for a certain fee. This way, it's clear for others and they know who to go to in order to obtain a flippy modded drive. Again, in my case, I don't care to spend the time destroying drives to make one. I rather just get one, and spend my time focusing on what is vital to me: transferring my commodore flippy disks.
IFW wrote:Additionally, Peepo is just offering to archive disks in the UK.

At the time you asked nobody had the means of modifying more than a single drive for their own personal use - the situation has changed for the better.
Please note however modding the drive is a lengthy process and these people do it in their spare time.

Thank you.
Fair enough...when I asked...no one had the means of creating a flippy modified drive; understood. But now they can! Great! Perhaps you should create a list of people who may be willing to do this for others? Again, I realize this is a lengthy process. However, once someone KNOWS how to do it, they are better at it then me or someone else trying to do it for the first time. Again, in my prior post I said I am willing to PAY for it. Someone will spend their time creating one, but in return, they get paid for their time doing it. I never said I am asking for anything for free.

Additionally, everyone has their unique talents and things they specialize in (electronic engineer...etc). Someone may be brilliant at creating, designing, or dealing with hardware and electric devices. On the other hand, there are others perhaps better at dealing with other things: software or communications...or...haha....taking care of pets. Again, the point is, I'm leaving the modification of the flippy drive to someone else. I rather just obtain a modified flippy drive? Get it?

It's far less complicated for someone to create a flippy drive if they already successfully created 10 of them. For me, who has never created one, it would take effort in time. I rather just pay someone who already has obtain the expertize and knowledge in creating a flippy drive....and then focus on transferring of my flippy disk media. Although it may take them time, they know EXACTLY how to create one because they may have already creating a few of them for themselves.

That's all I was kindly asking for in a prior post dated back in October of 2012. And since then (many many many months...roughly 1 year), I've not gotten anywhere since I've not been able to get a flippy modified drive. I'm sure you can understand my frustration!

Thanks!

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IFW
Posts: 3079
Joined: Mon Nov 08, 2010 2:42 pm

Re: Dumping C64 both Side Disk with Chinon FZ-502 DD Floppy

Post by IFW »

I can understand your frustration, but that can only be resolved now.
Without technology available to use modified drives for imaging flippy disks nobody would have been bothered to research and learn to modify modern drives (20 years after they were last used...) which have significantly less potential for modification than the ones used a long while ago - this is due to cost savings, and making the form factor more compact.
It's a chicken and egg situation: you do need technology and do need the drive hardware being updated at the same time until both work together.
It has been a lot of effort to make it work, but people who were involved do not have the means of producing more drives - hence the freely available instructions on DIY.
The whole modification is about enhancig an obsolete technology (double sided drives) to make it compatible with something even more obsolete (single sided drives using flipped disks), with only a very niche interest in it.
The technology is available, and there are people who can modify a drive for you.

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mr.vince
Posts: 2127
Joined: Tue Oct 05, 2010 5:48 pm

Re: Dumping C64 both Side Disk with Chinon FZ-502 DD Floppy

Post by mr.vince »

Don't get the rambling. If you don't like modding a drive, cut the disks open. Put the platter in a jacket with two index holes and just flip the disk.

Or _pay_ someone to mod a drive, unfortunately the price for sourcing a drive is about 50USD at least by now, then add labour, parts (includes alignment disks which are about USD 100 these days) and additional costs for e.g. a reserve to make warranty possible (required for B2C deals in Europe). This means the price goes up to several hundreds of dollars for a fully modified, cleaned and aligned drive with warranty... And people will ask for after sales support. Hence _we_ do not offer such drives to consumers. We just don't have the manpower to produce such drives, and the cost will put it out of reach for private users anyway. We already spent spears making the technology and building the controller.

If that means you won't buy one... Fine with us. There's no real profit made with consumer sales either. Pro users pay for R&D etc.

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