Help with damaged floppy disk

All questions regarding the dumping of media go here.
Swappage
Posts: 6
Joined: Thu May 12, 2016 4:18 pm

Help with damaged floppy disk

Post by Swappage » Tue May 17, 2016 4:05 pm

Hello everyone,
as you are aware of, i'm not too skilled in software preservation, i just started, and i'm having an issue with a floppy disk that unfortunetely is most likely badly damaged.. but i'd love to hear from you if you can help me in figuring out what is exactly wrong with it (magnetic problem? physical problem? etc).

I didn'tr try doing anything invasive to the disk till now, because i'm too worried of doing anything wrong.

What i tried to do is (making sure it's set to read only)
dump it with a kryoflux in flux format
try it in 2 amigas that are known to work perfectly (an A600 and an A1200).

What i can notice:
When the disk is spinning in the drive using kryoflux it makes a weird noise that i'm fairly confident it's not usual in floppies.. and also i can feel that the metal ring (sorry for the inappropriate terminology here) in the center of the disk (the one that is hooked by the drive motore and used for spinning) feels really loose.

using the DTC gui in java, while dumping, the "graph" of the flux is nearly flat, while the scatter graph is not linear at all.

I don't think it's an amigaDOS formatted floppy, because it's a game and is most likely trackloaded, so, even doing an ADF image won't give me any feedback.. all i get are unknown sectors.

I'll try to make a video/audio recording of the floppy spinning in the drive while dumping and take some detailed pictures of the disk to attach them here.. maybe you can help me out.
Unfortunately this game hasn't been dumped (according to the informations i have there is no IPF) and i'd really try everything i can to make a working dump of it, or at least to verify if it's definitely gone for good.

ah, by the way, the disk was stored in it's original box for 20 years or so, with other floppies, each in thei original box.. and the other floppies all work fine, so i think the environment was "floppy friendly" and shouldn't be the reason for a disk to deteriorate that much (even if well, you are right, more then 20 years)

ZrX
Posts: 241
Joined: Tue Dec 06, 2011 9:09 pm

Re: Help with damaged floppy disk

Post by ZrX » Tue May 17, 2016 4:50 pm

Could you post shots of the GUI graphs?

Swappage
Posts: 6
Joined: Thu May 12, 2016 4:18 pm

Re: Help with damaged floppy disk

Post by Swappage » Tue May 17, 2016 7:52 pm

I've attached the pictures... they look really bad compared to other floppy disks i've dumped
Attachments
kryo2.png
kryo1.png

SomeGuy
Posts: 87
Joined: Wed Feb 18, 2015 8:18 pm

Re: Help with damaged floppy disk

Post by SomeGuy » Tue May 17, 2016 9:46 pm

That looks like the track was completely unreadable. I'm assuming you are showing the selected track, as that is only normal for the last couple of unused tracks. Do all of the tracks look like this? (Sometimes oddball game disks leave some tracks unformatted)

Have you visually inspected the surface of the disk? It should be solid shiny dark brown. If you see circular scratches or grooves, then it is damaged. Disks that have been stored properly can still fall to pieces if they were very low quality to start with.

Have you tried cleaning the drive with a disk cleaner? Is the drive still reading other disks fine? (If this disk is damaged, then you should clean the drive before inserting anything else)

I wouldn't think the metal hub would be an issue - if the disk weren't spinning properly, the Kryoflux would complain.

Swappage
Posts: 6
Joined: Thu May 12, 2016 4:18 pm

Re: Help with damaged floppy disk

Post by Swappage » Tue May 17, 2016 10:39 pm

yes, unfortunately all the tracks are the same... :(

SomeGuy
Posts: 87
Joined: Wed Feb 18, 2015 8:18 pm

Re: Help with damaged floppy disk

Post by SomeGuy » Wed May 18, 2016 4:44 am

So, the surface of the disk?

Actually, it just occurred to me, if the metal hub has somehow come dis-attached from the cookie (the brown plastic disk), then a 3.5" drive really has no way to tell if the cookie itself is spinning and would result in all tracks looking blank and the Kryoflux would probably be oblivious to that.

If you manually turn the hub with the shutter open, can you tell if the rest is turning?

Swappage
Posts: 6
Joined: Thu May 12, 2016 4:18 pm

Re: Help with damaged floppy disk

Post by Swappage » Wed May 18, 2016 9:16 pm

that's the other thing i was thinking about, the metal hub really seems disengaged from the cookie..
it feels loose compared to other floppies and by opening the shutter it's hard to say because the surface is almost perfect (no dust, nothing) but it really looks like it's not turning AT ALL.

EDIT: i used a magnifier and definitely the disk is not spinning when i move the metal hub.

is there a way to safely fix this?

SomeGuy
Posts: 87
Joined: Wed Feb 18, 2015 8:18 pm

Re: Help with damaged floppy disk

Post by SomeGuy » Thu May 19, 2016 4:16 am

I don't know of a good way to do it, but it should at least be possible.

You should wait until you are sufficiently confident you can tackle this. Perhaps others will weigh in with some better advice. Perhaps find some trashed disks to pull apart and experiment on first.

Basically, you will have to open up the plastic case and remove the cookie and metal hub. The cookie should fit over hub and sit on top of a bit that protrudes out around the metal hub. It looks like these are normally held on by some kind of glue.

So if you can carefully put some glue around that bit around the hub and then place the cookie over it, it might hold it in place.

But, this is very easy to mess up:
- Opening the plastic case means you WILL break the connections that hold the case together.
- Touching the cookie can easily damage it. Don't scratch it with the tool you use to open the case.
- Glue gets everywhere. I think that is a law of glue or something. :P You absolutely must avoid getting any on the data area of the cookie.
- Some glues can also leave damaging residue from its drying process. I wouldn't use "superglue".
- You also risk getting the cookie glued in a position that is not sufficiently centered.
- Be sure to keep track of which side of the cookie is "up".

Every time I mess with glue, I wind up with it everywhere except where it is supposed to be.

Swappage
Posts: 6
Joined: Thu May 12, 2016 4:18 pm

Re: Help with damaged floppy disk

Post by Swappage » Thu May 19, 2016 10:26 am

Mhh, i don't feel confortable in doing such a thing because i'm no data recovery expert when it comes to hardware manipulation.

there is a computer science museum focused on preservation not far from here, i'll ask them for support

dlfrsilver
Posts: 78
Joined: Fri Nov 12, 2010 8:08 pm

Re: Help with damaged floppy disk

Post by dlfrsilver » Fri May 20, 2016 6:09 pm

But, this is very easy to mess up:
- Opening the plastic case means you WILL break the connections that hold the case together.
In itself, it's not a problem.
Touching the cookie can easily damage it. Don't scratch it with the tool you use to open the case.
My advice : use an average sized screwdriver to do that. I did it with tons of disk with mould on the disk surface. Train on a crap disk to get the trick.

- Glue gets everywhere. I think that is a law of glue or something. :P You absolutely must avoid getting any on the data area of the cookie.
That's only true if you use an unappropriate glue. I use "Loctite super glue 3 - type Gel Control".

This one is not liquid, but more like a pasta, very handy to no put the glue everywhere you don't want to.

[quote- Some glues can also leave damaging residue from its drying process. I wouldn't use "superglue".[/quote]

None of my disk have residue. it depends of the disk nature. It never happen on 3.5 disk, but it's common on 3 inches disks.
- You also risk getting the cookie glued in a position that is not sufficiently centered.
check the marking under the metal cookie, and find the correspondance with the disk surface edges, apply a minimum of glue, glue it, and quickly save the disk content.
Every time I mess with glue, I wind up with it everywhere except where it is supposed to be.
this is quite normal, you must not do such operations with unadequate products.

Liquid glue = wrong.

Post Reply

Who is online

Users browsing this forum: No registered users and 1 guest